Minimum Gauge

[PeterH]

[Colin Peake]

Hmm... that ticket booth looks familiar! Must be a 'standard' miniature railway design

Personally I wouldn't add any more white to the 'CAFE' on the roof as it will add to the realism if they are slighly wish-washy, a wash over with another (darker) colour and a dry brush with a light colour will work wonders.

Shame you are sellling the Duchess but I look forward to seeing the diesel!

Colin
_________________
Colin Peake
www.shiftingsands.fotopic.net (O9 Project)
www.miniaturerailways.fotopic.net (The real thing!)
www.colinpeake.fotopic.net (4mm Scale Models)

[monstermunch1982]

Peter,

Many thanks for the info, based on this I have come up with 2 options on the below sketch which is not to scale , 1 of them I dont think is an option but see descriptions below...



Option 1 shows the public viewing bit with a fence and the ditch sloping down but in thoery the Giraffe could get to the public so not an option.

Option 2 shows the public viewing bit with a fence and a seperate ditch and wall to stop the animals getting to the public, I think this is the best way to go and hopefully this is roughly what you have seen before.

On both options the track will be slightly raise (I have seen pictures at whipsnade zoo railway)

Sorry for the poor sketch but was a quick one before nipping to scotland for work (only 4 hours each way)

The ticket booth must be a standard miniature railway design Colin, found the plans on a supreb website. I had come across the ticket booth and bought it, never crossed my mind that yours was the same but could help carrying out your modifications to the window....

I will leave the white to the cafe thanks colin, I need to lightly weather all the buildings when I have complete them with a darker a colour but thanks for the comment.

I dont really want to sell the duchess but feel it is a little on the large side for the zoo...

Andy

[PeterH]

Ha ha option 1 seems more normal - where the animal is kept in the enclosure by a wall that is too high to climb or jump. For the likes of lions the wall needs to be very high.

With option 1 there is the issue that a tall animal can potentially eat the public's hands, but there are not many flesh-eaters with long necks. Our local zoo has a setup like this for giraffes - the enclosure is at ground level and the public on a raised walkway around the edge, with all heads at about the same height. The giraffes are fed from the walkway, and otherwise they just amble about in the middle of the enclosure.

I have not heard of a ha ha like option 2 - the 'cliff' does not seem a good way to enclose an animal because it can jump or fall down the 'cliff', and the extra ditch at the foot of the wall wastes space.
_________________
Peter

[rockershovel]

Ha-has don't have vertical or near-vertical walls, for reasons of structural stability and animal safety.

Ha-has at country houses, where they are used to confine animals to certain parts of the grounds, are usually fairly shallow ditches ( since cattle and sheep don't jump ), often with thorn bushes or fences along the bottom; this serves the function of confining the animals without being visually obvious from a distance. They are mainly used to provide the open panoramas so favoured by 17th and 18th century landscape architects.

Zoo ha-has are a different matter. The animals are larger, sometimes dangerous, and the public are closer. The public can also be remarkably stupid at times, and zoo enclosures also need to keep the public out of the enclosures at times.

Zoos also use concrete and brick, which country house ones don't, being entirley constructed frm local materials; partly for cost reasons, and partly to make them as near as possible, invisible.
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rambling miner

[monstermunch1982]

Thank you for your input again,

Based on this I think I am going to modify option 2 slightly, by not having the vertical face of the ha-ha and making it like the other side and slope down to the bottom. In the bottom I think a nice row of low thorn type bushes would do the trick to stop animals getting through.

I am having a bit of a nightmare with the levels too.

The track needs to be level all the way round the layout but needs to travel to the station and in to the animal enclosures on a slightly raised track bed
The public will have to be raise above the ground level of the enclosure and track to stop the animals getting out.
So the viewing area will have to be raised above the level of the track/enclosure with the train going under a bridge/in to a tunnel to get through. So in theory the station and enclosures will be at the same level with the public view parts rising up to see the animals...

I am proberbly thinking about this far too much but I want it to look right when it is finished.

A revised layout plan will be drawn up this week as time permits.

The baseboards were due to be collected at the weekend just gone but the maker built it as a 6' x 2' board not 2No 3' x 2' boards so hopefully these will be ready at the weekend coming for collection...

Cheers

Andy

[monstermunch1982]

A section through the public viewing and enclosures for comment, I think this works rather well, someone in the know may tell me otherwise.

Only problem is the rise from the station level up to viewling level and how I get up there

Anyone know what the recommended slope is for people?



Cheers

Andy

[rockershovel]

zoo ha-has don't usually have bushes in the bottom, mostly for hygeine reasons
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rambling miner

[PeterH]

[Pandy]

Steps ? all depends on the time period in which the layout is set, if it's modern there are disability access issues to consider, alongside parents with buggies as for the correct angle of slope, we can't help much there I'm afraid, our local zoo is set around a castle on a hill, one area even has a chair lift. Andy, if it looks too steep to walk up, it probably is, I would say if it's not an up to date setting there would be parents with huge old fashioned prams to consider but no doubt my parents struggled & sweatted with my pram on some of the slopes around Dudley Castle, some just wouldnt be practical to attempt to smooth out at the time and now listed building status may well prevent other earthworks. We're back to if it looks right, it is and of course whatever angle you make it, some frustrated civil engineer somewhere will tell you it's wrong
Sorry we couldn't be more help, I can't even remember the relevant planning details now
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Dave & Lorraine, more ideas than space, time & finance permit !

[Colin Peake]

Don't forget that if you do have steps, there can always be an alternative gently sloped route 'off board' - you could even indicate this with a sign pointing off the layout!

Colin
_________________
Colin Peake
www.shiftingsands.fotopic.net (O9 Project)
www.miniaturerailways.fotopic.net (The real thing!)
www.colinpeake.fotopic.net (4mm Scale Models)

[monstermunch1982]

Thank you for your advise guys, as always, great stuff

I think between enclosures I might have to create a mini ha-ha bridge to stop animals passing to different areas.

The layout is a modern ish layout so will have to have some sort of slope but I do lke colins idea of an off scene slope, but I may just have enough room to do steps and slope if I plan it correctly and if it looks right it proberly is

The major headache is not the raised area to the back of the layout, it is the raised area to the station side where I got to have different levels in a small area

Animal enclosure
Track/staion level
Public viewing area

Cheers

Andy

[AndyA]

Guiodelines from the (UK) accessibility group - this is what they consider reasonable, but would normally be acceptable standards if someone complained about access.

http://www.access-group.org.uk/p_AG_Ramps.ikml

They recommend 1 in 20 as a slope that virtually every wheelchair user can manage, and also say that many solo users can handle 5" steps.

Regarding the 1 in 20 figure, I have on my pd49 site a disabled access 'walk' round the old town walls, which includes "Blue Anchor Lane", which is about 1 in 10 and cobbled. I had three wheelchair users and a buggy user check it out, the only problem was going down in the buggy, which was pronounced 'a little tricky in places'. Now, the wheelchair users were all reasonably fit, but one has ME, so in model form at least, something steeper than 1 in 20 would be okay. I might look at 1 in 15 with five inch risers spaced at five foot intervals - wheelchair users who can't manage a standard kerb usually have pushers.

Note the reference to handrails in the link, as well.

Or, as Colin suggested, sign ramped access of-stage.

regards
Andy A
_________________
Gn15: Gnot so much a scale, more a state of mind
gnine: less is the gnew more
GnTonic - enjoy irresponsibly

[monstermunch1982]

Well I finally got the baseboards at the weekend and got a bit of work done last night.

As I had the baseboard sides raised up 2" so I have installed 2" of polystrene board in to the hole to allow me to dig down and not go below the baseboard top. This can hopefully be seen in the pictures (I havent dug down at this point yet)

I started by roughly laying the track (held in place using the other halves hair clips pushed in to the polystrene) and pushing a coach round to ensure it wasnt a too tight radius.

Unfortunatly at the moment, as can be seen in the pictures, I am going to struggle to run the loop in to a 2 track station due to the radius the inner track would create, plus the intergration of a standard right or left hand point.

So it is going to have to be a passing loop behind the scenes to hold a a 3 and a 4 coach train. Unless I can squeeze it some more when I come to lay the track prpoerly unless anyone can suggest something else?

Another change is that there will now not be a raise viewing area due to the raised area been above the line of the baseboard and not hidden from view. So this may be slightly raised with a high animal fence along the perimeter of the enclosure with individual ha-ha with ha-ha bridge to enable the train to enter and leave the enclosure. But also removes the need or tunnels, ramps or/and steps...

Not sure how to to seperate the 2 enclosures, maybe a wooden fence with ha-ha to stop animals charging at it in real life, maybe this would work??

The end of the loop by the landrover will be brought inwards slightly too so its not as close to the edge.

Layout pictures, again I will say sorry now for the poor quality of the pictures, again these were taken on iphone.













Again comments welcome as always, good or bad.

Andy